Metal, Hardcore, Indie, Rock
In a recent episode of the podcast “Tetragrammaton With Rick Rubin,” Slipknot percussionist M. Shawn “Clown” Crahan spoke with producer Rick Rubin, as per theprp and loudwire. The conversation covered a lot of Clown’s life and the several periods of the Iowan masked metal movement, even though it didn’t address their collaboration on “Vol. 3: (The Subliminal Verses)”. During the long conversation, Clown candidly discusses the many injuries that have resulted from the sacrifices he has made for the organization over the years. At one point, Clown disclosed that he needs heart surgery in addition to revealing that he still has severe back problems. After the band’s most recent tour, he learned about that development.
You know Slipknot is good for me, always has been. And I hate that. I hate that it keeps me alive. You know what I mean, Rick? Like it keeps me alive. It makes me drink water. It makes me… It gets the bad smoke that I had once out of me. It gets the tox… you know, it keeps me alive. It gives me desire. It gives me will. Gives me purpose. And I can’t stand it. It’s such a priority of existence. And I have to do it.
I have a skipping heart and I got to get a surgery. And I found this out after my last tour. I went in, I wasn’t feeling good, and I went in and the nurse was trying to get an EKG thing going on me or whatever and it just wasn’t happening. I kind of fell asleep and I woke up. I’m like, ‘Are you going to get this thing?’ And she’s like, ‘Oh, it’s not working.’ They thought I was having a heart attack right there. Anyway, my heart skips and apparently I’ve taught myself to be like a cross country runner.
So, I’m overweight and my brain is so strong that it tells this stuff what to do. So, my standing heart rate at night is 43 and during the day I get down to 33. [It] hasn’t happened since I’ve been here with you, which is good, because I’ll go from ‘on’, to just straight up I feel like I’m dying. So, I got to get a surgery. It’s a very easy surgery. You’re usually out on the same day. It’s not like they rip you open. This is something about the electricity.
But at first, they thought maybe I needed a pacemaker. And I was like, ‘Doc, listen, I get a pacemaker. I’m done, right? Touring, Slipknot?’ So he goes, ‘Oh, no. You’re going to feel better.’ And I just I lost it. I was like, I can’t get out of this to save my life. I’m like, there is nothing, not even my heart. It’s going to be better because of Slipknot.
I got a concierge doctor because I’m in Slipknot and I’m able to go to levels and they’re like, ‘No, you’re going to feel better. You better get in shape because you got to do more now at 56.’ And it’s just like I just can’t believe it, man, that this was me. It’s wonderful. I’m lucky
Clown also discussed the roots of the numerology that the band’s nine members adopted early on and its significance, delving deeper into the band’s mythos elsewhere in the conversation. According to Clown, the band’s members used to wear their own personalised jackets with their numbers on them when they went out in public.
We wanted a gang, man. You know? It’s not about Shawn or Paul… It’s like, quit talking to me about my name. It’s like I’m here to talk about Slipknot. And this is one way to get to it, but I’m just number six. You know what I mean? It’s like we’re not here to talk about my military school upbringing. We’re here to talk about my dedication with my brothers. So, get with it. Ask me another sports question and I’m out.
It’s just that simple. And that’s how we did it. So, numbers, barcodes, couple logos. I wrote a piece…. You know, I was pretty diverse in numerology. And in a lot of tarot, six is the sun and nine is the moon. And you know, I just always knew six was nine upside down. And I just felt like everything happens at six, you know?
From zero to nine. And come back around, you know, one insinuates two. If you have two, why not three? Four is church. Five things are molecular. Six, it’s happening. It’s going on. It’s on fire. Seven, we’re on our way. We’re flying through the solar system. Eight, getting ready to sell out. Nine, we might as well be at zero; Insinuates rebirth.
So, like all things in Slipknot, I let all choose first. Yeah. I remember Mick going, ‘I’m number seven. It’s my lucky number. No one else can be seven.’ And it’s like, ‘Dude, you’re seven.’ Joey‘s like, ‘I’m number one.’ I’m like, ‘Of course you are. Of course you are.’ Paul‘s like, ‘Well, if he gets to be number one, I’m number two.’ And I’m like, ‘You guys are both dorks.’ I’m like, ‘Go ahead. You gotta be number one and two.’ They’re like, ‘What are you?’ And I’m like, ‘You know what I am? Everybody knows what I am.’ And everybody had already decided.
And they’re like, ‘What? What hasn’t been taken?’ I’m like, ‘Six, man.’ Because six is a pretty… It’s a number that’s around a lot. And you know, they take it dark, but I don’t care. Take it biblical. Take it where you need to, because I am. It’s what I’ve established, and it’s the only thing that’s going to represent me.
And then Sid got in the band and we’re like, you know, him and I were having a little moment — he’s very challenging, which I like. He pushes and you should be pushed, and he’s pushing me a little bit on the numbers, right? I go, ‘So what number are you?’ ‘Cause I’m ready to shut him down. You’re not going to be 12. You’re not going to be 13. He just looks me right in the face. He goes, ‘Zero.’
And at that moment, zero hadn’t even crossed my mind. And when he took it, it was like pages were written in a Bible. It was like, ‘Of course you are.’ So, if you think about it, we’re nine guys, but we’re 0 through eight. And then when the singer left, we had to have a singer. That added a number because we had to get someone to play the drums ’cause Corey wasn’t going to play those drums like the original singer.
Then Craig was an original guitar player who replaced Donnie. And when he left, it was like, ‘Don’t leave. Just be a sampler. Do the web stuff. Do be proactive, but you do the 808s. You do the ‘Here comes the pain’. Sid will do the scratching, the jungle
Crahan also considered the impact that the deaths of the band’s drummer Joey Jordison and bassist Paul Grey had on him. Clown said this in reference to the deceased couple.
It’s been over 10 years now [since Paul died.] I reunited with his daughter October. She was in her mom’s belly when he passed and I wanted to wait until she was a little bit older. So, I’ve taken her to the GRAMMYS [in 2024] and she’s 13. So, it’s been a minute.
He’s the whole reason I’m sitting here. He hijacked me from my art career. So many people innately wanted to say, so blindly, well, ‘You know, Paul would want you to go on’, and I wouldn’t say much. And then finally, I had enough. And I’m like, did anyone think that maybe I might not want to go on without my friend?
And just to be honest, sitting here today, man, I mean, you know, I don’t know how much more longer I have because it’s just, the new guys — They’re not new guys — They’re people. They’re my friends and I got them in and they’re great. They’re wonderful. I love them and we have such a great time and good things are happening.
But it’s no better than writing that song in a basement. It’s certainly no better without one of my best friends who was the genius. Him and Joey, they’re two of the greatest hard rock writers of all time. And here I am, you know, the art guy, you know?
[I] probably hate it the most because I have to do hard things. I have to be part of hard decisions. And I’m okay with doing that because I’m not going to live lies. I, for myself, I have to live truth. So I’m willing to partake in hard decisions in life, you know. But we I guess we we did it, you know?
The majority of Slipknot’s members had performed in bands in the Des Moines region prior to the band’s formation. Crahan told Rubin about his initial encounter with Joey Jordison after they were on the same bill, as well as his observation of the young drummer in action behind the kit.
I remember going out to Joey cause he got done with his set. He went outside to get some air and I walked outside, I was older than everyone and I could get a beer and I walked outside and I was just staring at him. “We didn’t know each other and he looked at me and he’s like, ‘What?’ And I was like, ‘I just had to see if you were human.’ I was like, ‘Whoa, you are a real person. Wow, congratulations man. In my life I’ve never seen … I didn’t know you could play drums like that’.
Even though they clicked that evening, Jordison wouldn’t join Slipknot for a while. Later on in the conversation, Crahan talked about Slipknot‘s early years and his original concept to have three drummers in the band. Jordison was fascinated enough to visit their studio for a jam even though they weren’t quite nine deep yet. Crahan claims that after learning that Paul Grey had asked Jordison to the studio while he was in Colorado, he left his house to return to Iowa to see how things would work out. Before allowing Jordison to use his drum kit and modify it to suit his playing style, Crahan performed first.
What I remember most besides what he was doing was the incredible ability to retain what those guys had just played with me. It was like a tornado hit my life and I was just like, ‘I have no idea what’s happening right now.’ But I was so impressed and he had just heard it once. I was the drummer, disregarded, and taken to a level of insanity.
However, Crahan remembers Jordison pushing him back when he asked to join the group, despite how well things had gotten.
We got done with practice and I went outside to Joey and said, ‘Are you in or out?’ And he’s like, ‘I gotta think about it.’ I’m a pretty aggro person and I got right up in his face and I was like, ‘What do you mean you gotta think about it? There’s no thinking about it. You’re either in or you’re out. That’s not how this works son.’
Jordison eventually joined the band, and their friendship blossomed. However, Crahan claims that a few years later, Jordison admitted that if Crahan hadn’t allowed him to join, he would have taken the three-drum concept and created something more in line with his personal style. Crahan was questioned about the band’s changes and similarities near the end of the episode. He returned to talking about Jordison after that introspective time.
I miss my dudes. Joey used to get on me man. He was the one and he made me the best I could ever be. I like to think I did that to him. I used to say we were nemeses because we always just argued, but it’s not until someone’s gone that you realize they bring the best out of you.
