Metal, Hardcore, Indie, Rock
Steve “Lips” Kudlow, the lead singer and guitar player of thrash metal pioneers Anvil, took his time to chat with Chaoszine about the group’s upcoming album, sharing also some insight on the band’s story. Anvil is currently having a busy European tour.
Hi Lips! First of all, thank you so much for your time.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: No problem!
I gotta tell you that Anvil’s latest album, “One and only”, is one of the best heavy metal albums i’ve heard in my whole life – considering equally the style and the sound.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Oh, I wish that I could say that! [laughs]
What’s your favorite one then?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: You know… I don’t know – it isn’t my stuff, that’s for sure! Although my son would argue with me, he told me a long time ago that my favorite band and my favorite music should be my own! And I don’t agree with that.
I’d agree with him though. [laughs] But would you like to share anything on the upcoming album? Is it going to be something similar to “One and only”? Or are you planning to surprise your fans with for example… a style switch?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: There’s not even two songs that are the same. So it’s not gonna be the same… but in a very obvious way Anvil – they are all examples of different aspects of the same thing. I can’t help but be myself… If you can’t be yourself, who can you be? [laughs]
Yeah! It reminds me so much of the entire Anvil discography – the way you’re maintaining such a distinguishing style over all of the albums, yet never repeat the melodies, the riffs – it’s always original. Every new song is something completely different.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: That’s right. I don’t like to use the same thing over and over again. Although people would argue that I am [laughs]. But I don’t see it that way because as I write, I’m “building” what would be the next song, rather than “writing” another song. When I go to write another song, I want to write something different than when I did the last one – so I make sure that, no matter what, everything changes from one song to the next. So that it doesn’t sound like one big long song on an album – every song is very different from the other. But, at the same time, it has similarities to things that we’ve done before. If you can understand what I mean.
I know – it’s like the core of Anvil sound, right?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Yeah.
And how do you come up with such original riffs? Does it happen during the band’s jam sessions?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: No, I do all my stuff on my own. I usually sit in my room and experiment. I save all the stuff on the computer and then go back and make songs out of them. And a song in its entirety – like, all the musical aspect, i bring it to the rehearsal and show the other guys and we put it together. It usually takes a day for each song to come to being, but not even a day… It’s sometimes a few minutes, and then everybody is learning their parts and eventually it’s completely consistent. And then you go and record it, and the song is done!
So it really happens THAT quickly!
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: It can be very, very fast. Sometimes a song can only take about fifteen minutes, and it’s written! The song “Metal on metal” was written in fifteen minutes! So anything and everything is possible, because… you come up with an idea, and just very rapidly… you finish it. It’s kinda magical in a certain sense, but it’s what we do! That’s what musicians do. That’s a part of what it takes to be a musician! And if you haven’t got that in you, then… you’re gonna struggle, you know? It shouldn’t take a long time. Writing a song shouldn’t be a difficulty. It should just flow, it should just come out. And if it doesn’t – come back later, until it does.
That’s very true.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: You know, that’s a thing. You’ve gotta be in the right… headspace. Like, “I’m gonna do this!”, and you do, right? It’s just… I can’t really explain it.
Hm, I know what you mean. So it basically happens that the creativity just suddenly hits you and you know that THIS is going to be the next song?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: That’s right. Every day it could be something new. And that’s a thing, it’s… you gotta be always on to it. Like, I have a folder on my computer with all my collected pieces of songs, and it goes back to 2017… And I would say that there’s probably 500 or 600 songs here!
Wow, that’s a lot.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: You know, you keep collecting more and more and more… every day you’re adding to it. And it doesn’t mean you’re gonna write a song, right this minute, it means you’re putting it away and you’ll come back to it later, and if you need it, or if it inspires you enough… Like, when I listen to it later, and if I go: “oh, i like that!”, then i’ll make a song out of it! But it’s gotta be there in order to make the choice. You’ve always got to keep collecting new ideas, and then you’ll make a judgement call later and pick your favorite. On the newest record I picked ten of my favorites out of five hundred! [laughs] And I started making the album of ten tracks i’ve done, now i have to write all the lyrics. And the most difficult thing is making the decision on what that lyric is – any individual lyric – what it’s gonna be. That’s the hardest part. What am I gonna call the song? You know, it could be anything. But only one thing is correct, and you know it when you hear it. And generally speaking, what you do is you find where the chorus line of the song is and find the right words to fit it. And from there, you write lyrics. You have to have the hook line, the chorus or the name of the song first, and then you of course know what you’re writing about. So, everything in an order.
So, what inspires you mostly regarding writing? Your lyrics have gotten visibly mature over the years. Even if we compare the first album to “One and Only”.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: The subject of the song is the most difficult thing to come up with. Because you’ve gotta find something that is captivating to yourself, but not only to yourself – anybody else listening to it. You’ve gotta write about things people can relate to. You can’t have songs about nothing, they have to be about something. And that can be the most difficult. You gotta make it up – it’s all about imagination, I suppose.
You know, it’s really inspiring how creative you are and how much passion you have for what you do.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Oh, I love it. That’s what I do. That’s all I ever wanted to do, so I’m definitely doing it and I’m a happy guy. I’m 70 years old, probably got 10 years left and I’m gonna make the best of it! And hopefully write another couple of albums.
Earlier you mentioned that your son said that your favorite metal album probably should be one of yours. Has any of your children ever shown interest in the same kind of career? Have they tried becoming musicians, or it’s not their thing?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: No, my son plays guitar but he’s not gonna make a living doing it. [laughs] He’s not interested that much as far as doing it for money. He’s playing guitar, I supplied him with a number of guitars already… and he has a completely different taste than me! He doesn’t like metal really. He likes progressive, fusion, complicated music. I like a little bit more simple and straightforward.
But then he plays out of pure passion, just like you do. So that’s something he took after you, I think.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Yeah, he plays because it’s a distraction, it’s something to do other than what he always does – he’s got a job working in a chemical factory. So when he gets home he plays his guitar and, luckily, he doesn’t live far from where he works, so he doesn’t have to drive. You know, it’s all good, I’m very happy with his choices… Cause, you don’t really want a musician as a son! That’s what my mother had to put up with, and I don’t blame her for being not happy with it. It’s a very, very… difficult road to take. And there’s a lot of struggle. And, you know, you don’t want your kids to struggle, so you tell them ”Don’t become a musician!”. I don’t blame my parents for having that attitude, but, at the same time, they never really appreciated what I’ve done. Or whether it had any significance. But i didn’t do it for them, i did it for myself. That’s what it‘s all about. It is a very selfish endeavour, and there is a certain level of narcissism that comes with being a musician. It’s… I care about myself and what I’m doing, rather than what the rest of the world is, so there is the aspect of that, and… self-belief, you have to have it.
That’s for sure, yeah.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Cause everybody has criticism, everybody criticizes music and artwork… Including myself, you know, always when a new album by one of my favorite artists comes out, I’ll sit there and criticize too, so [laughs] it’s a struggle. And you gotta be motivated by that struggle, and say “I’m gonna overcome it!” and that’s something I always work towards, it’s finding solutions to your problems, in a certain way. Sometimes it’s a problem to find the right arrangement, so you try and arrange it, in all different ways, until you find the right way, it’s problem-solving, it’s technically speaking, it’s what music writing is, it’s almost like writing mathematical equations – you gotta find stuff that works [laughs]. And you make this decision when you’re a kid.
And it’s a great thing if you manage to pursue what you actually believe in.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: You know what’s really interesting? My parents pushed against it. And then pushing me against it drove me more towards it.
I can imagine that…
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: So the thing is – if you want your kid to be a musician, sometimes the best thing you can do is… to tell them not to be. [laughs]
True! [laughs] Another thing that I wanted to mention is how much I admire your onstage performance. My first thought when I saw Anvil live in 2024 was that it could have just as well been a 70s or 80s show and it would feel the same way. I’m really sure that this was the exact same energy… that it’s so clear how you have never burned out. And how you’re enjoying every single second of what you do. It’s that way that you’re feeling every single sound that you play, how you’re having the greatest joy out of it.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: That’s right! When you get to play and be who you are, what could be a better place? You’ve worked your whole life to be there, and then you’re there! So, what’s your reaction going to be? You’re gonna be happy. That’s why I don’t understand musicians who aren’t having a good time. It doesn’t make sense. You work your whole life looking for fame, looking for acceptance, looking for the love. And then when you’re given it – you’re gonna complain? Or wanna go home? Why? As for me, all I know is: when I get my chance, and I’m on stage, those are my moments – those are the moments I live for. That’s what I’ve worked my whole life to attain, to be there. So, of course, it’s the happiest moments of your life, it’s when everything goes away – all your problems. All the things that bother you in life disappear. The only thing that matters is that moment, and where you are, and what you’re doing, and that’s it. It’s euphoric! Literally euphoric. You know, there are moments that I get covered in goosebumps. It’s unbelievable electricity of happiness going through your body. You can’t imagine how amazing that feels! And I feel very, very lucky to be able to have that in my life. That I have something that does that. People can look their whole lifetime and never feel that. But every night, man, every night it’s… I’ve been blessed. And each of the guys in my band feels the same way. And that’s what drives us together, I mean, I’ve been friends with Rob for more than 50 years. Which is in itself incredible. But it’s because you’ve got that one thing in common, you can’t be denied or pushed away. You go up against the world like that, for a lifetime, because you got that will, desire and strength and self-assurance that you can! You know? That we feel that we have something special. And we never gave up, or never will. It’s what we are, and who we are. So, yeah, it’s kind of an interesting thing, but that’s what it all comes down to. You gotta find your place in life where you find the most happiness and the most fulfillment. And for me it’s music. That’s it.
That’s a great thing that you’ve found it, that you managed to pursue it and that you find it so fulfilling. And since you mentioned your friendship with Rob – you two met as teenagers, in Anvil documentary you said that you were walking past his house, heard the drumming, and you were sure that he was older than you, because otherwise – he’d probably be at school during that time! Then you guys met, you became friends, there was that very special energy between you since the very beginning, and after all… it’s probably one of the greatest stories of friendship in the history of rock music. How do you manage to maintain it? Because I suppose that over the years there were some ups and downs, maybe at some point you even both were sure that it was over, and yet there’s still that amazing bond between the two of you.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: You lean on each other. If one of us gets depressed or despondent or feels like they wanna leave, the other guy talks him into not. We’re good at communicating with each other and keeping each other motivated and in line. It’s just… we’re lucky it works. You know, on a personal level, it’s easier to walk away from just yourself, but walking away from someone else and having an effect on their life? You gotta think twice about that. Because it’s not just you – you can’t be completely selfish. You’re affecting someone else’s life. And those things are important. You drive each other through. You help each other out. You lean on each other.
Exactly.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: You could call it codependence… Which is not necessarily a good thing, but… It can be. There’s a codependence. I’m not gonna deny that. And I’m living up to Rob’s expectations too, and the other way around. You gotta have patience with each other, and you motivate each other. It’s really important to me to write something that Rob enjoys, and if he doesn’t then I move on to something else, I try to find something else. But you drive each other, you push each other forward. If you work with each other to move forward, that’s what it all really is and why it’s worked so well is that there are very compatible backgrounds – both on a personal level and musically. There are many things in Rob’s life that were very, very similar to my life. Same kind of ethnic background and, to a certain level, family structure much similar: good parents, we were well provided for, never really desperate or deprived… we came from relatively middle-class people, so there’s many things in common that make it all work. And we got lucky! That’s lucky. Really, in the music business any kind of success is luck. There’s 10% your talent, but everything else is about being lucky. Finding the right guys for your band, finding the right manager, finding the right booking agent… and on and on it goes. Getting lucky to meet up with the right people and to be involved in the right things during the right time. Those are all luck. There’s no guarantees for anybody. And it’s all by chance and, to a great degree, luck. Dave Grohl said to me that him and Kurt Cobain got in a car and drove to Los Angeles. And in an old, beat-up car they made it down there and moved it to what they call a squat apartment, which is a condemned building where people live, even though they’re not supposed to. And he was telling me that they were basically sleeping on sleeping bags on the floor in apartments with no windows in them. And then, six months later, they were in a Hyatt Regency hotel, looking out all over Los Angeles, after signing a million-dollar record deal. That’s luck! [laughs]
Yeah, there is much luck in it indeed.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: He said: “we came there with a demo tape, we got lucky! We walked into a record company and the guy at the record company goes: I’m gonna sign it!” Bingo! And that’s the heart of it all. It’s one thing to come up with the material and write all the songs and be there, but it’s all dependent on luck – on walking into that record company and them going: “Okay! We’re gonna put the record out.” And then it’s all about luck – the people liking what you did. So, it’s incredible, I mean – luck is a major contributor to all artistic success. There are many people that would argue that, but… go try it. You’ll find out yourself. How lucky you need to be to get anywhere. And that means, to get anywhere. Even to get your first gig – where are you gonna play? Who’s gonna hire you if no one knows your songs?
You gotta be in the right place at the right time.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: The endless hurdles to get over it… The endless trials and tribulations and struggles that you have to go through to get anywhere in the music business. And going back, and going in circles, you can understand why a parent would say: “You don’t want to be a musician!” [laughs] You can understand it. When you look at it and, in fact, my advice is: go become a carsales man. Or become a doctor, become a lawyer, become a dentist, a jeweller, a garbage man. There’s a lot of things you can do and make money, have a living, create a family and have a successful life. You don’t need to be a musician and struggle. That’s, i guess, for the people who are kind of masochist, they don’t mind being tortured. I mean, there is a certain level of truth to that too, because I think that there is a level of masochism in being a musician. Because there’s a part of you that just kind of ignores the pain. It can be a very, very difficult life, you can be starving, end up on the street. It can be very difficult. So making a decision that that’s what you wanna do with your life is a tough one. And you can see how important it could be to have self-belief. Because your self-belief has to be much bigger than possibilities of getting anywhere.
Yeah, well, it’s always related with taking some kind of risk… As “Anvil” you have also influenced a lot of bands such as Metallica or Anthrax. And… i believe there was an interview with Lars [Ulrich – Metallica] around the time when you guys were recording the documentary – where he spoke of how much Anvil influenced – especially ‘Metal on Metal’ and ‘Hard n’ heavy’ – how much they influenced Metallica in their early days, particularly the album ‘Kill’em all’.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Right.
When you listen to these kinds of albums, of these bands, can you tell where they’ve taken any influence from your music? Can you recognize your sound?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Not really. I mean, in some ways yes, but then, you know… as soon as somebody adds their voice, that’s their sound. A guitar riff is a guitar riff. And until there’s a voice, it could be anybody. That’s how I look at it. So do I hear my influence? Not really. And in some cases it’s so obscure to me, I don’t hear it at all. Like, sometimes I’m somewhat insulted. [laughs] You know what I mean? Some band will tell me: “Hey man, I listen to you guys all the time, you influence me, we try to copy everything you do”, and then i listen to it and it’s absolutely horrible! I feel terrible. I don’t hear any Anvil at all! So in many cases not only do I not hear it… I want to hear it.
And you yourself have this very distinctive voice, I think that I couldn’t mistake it for any other. Like, I hear your voice and I know exactly that this is Anvil. A lot of voices in rock and metal sound more or less similar – yours clearly stands out. When for the first time did you realize that you had this powerful, heavy metal voice?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: You know what… it’s not a matter of being metal. It’s about individuality. It was pretty much right away. The first shows we ever did, we were playing in a big room and I could hear my voice echoing in the room! And I became to recognize it as only my own. Or so you identify it: “that’s the sound of Lips.” It’s like, if you ever heard yourself recorded – and when you hear your voice come back – “that’s me talking”? It’s no different with the singing. But eventually you come to be able to recognize it. And it only sounds like you to you. You become accustomed to listening to yourself and now you can identify who or what you are.
Are you relating more to the role of the singer or guitar player? Or do you find this fulfillment in combining them both?
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: I didn’t wanna do it! [laughs] In early bands we had singers, but what happened was, I came to realize that I’m depending on somebody else to propel my career. That’s a shitty way to feel. And you’re not responsible, somebody else is responsible. And I didn’t like that feeling. I wanna be in control. And I was having problems – I would write a song and a guy would write lyrics and sing in ways I didn’t like.
And this way it wasn’t truly your work.
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: Yeah! So then you ask, why am I putting up with it? And then the guys are gonna argue with you, you get a guy in the band that’s arguing with you and causing trouble. And you don’t like what he’s doing. Then why bother? Learn how to sing and then you don’t have to put up with it. And that’s exactly what in eventuality happened. I came to realize it’s easier for me to be in a band guiding and making a goal where I want to go. I don’t have to listen to anybody’s bullshit or put up with it. I’m completely the boss. And that’s what I wanted to be. And when I looked around as a kid, my favorite music was mostly 3-piece bands – Jimi Hendrix, the Cream, even Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath were 3-piece bands, they had separate singers but still, generally speaking, they were 3-piece bands. So my thought was, let’s make a 3-piece band! When we first started out I figured: let’s get another guitar player and we’ll get him to sing! And I’ll only sing sometimes. And that didn’t work out, I ended up being the singer all the time and the other guitar… we ended up with a second guitar player that wasn’t even adding anything and he wasn’t singing much… So why is he there? So in eventuality we became a 3-piece band, and that was it.
Well, I guess that your vocals anyway express Anvil’s style well enough! Lips, thank you so much for your time today – best of luck on ‘Pounding the past’ tour!
Steve “Lips” Kudlow: See you in December!
Anvil‘s upcoming tour dates are as follows:
